IGF061 In Good Faith with Sister Mary Michael Fox - Student, Teacher, Catechist, Author

Sister Rejane  
Hello, I am Sister Rejane Cytacki of A Nun's Life. And my guest today is Sister Mary Michael Fox, a Dominican Sister of St. Cecilia. Join us for a prayerful journey that explores these questions and more: What does it mean to be a bride of Christ? How do you know if you are called to religious life? What is the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd? May the joy of our conversation resonate with your own personal journey with Jesus to serve others. Enjoy. Welcome sister, Mary Michael.

Sister Mary Michael  
Hello, sister. Thanks for having me. Hello to everyone.

Sister Rejane  
Yes. And, you know, we, I have to share with the audience that as Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, we actually started in Nashville, Tennessee, and were there from 1851 to 1858. We left couple years before your community came, is that correct?

Sister Mary Michael  
Yes. We came in 1860.

Sister Rejane  
Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your congregation?

Sister Mary Michael  
Our apostolate is teaching primarily. And our sisters have been in Nashville since 1860. We were invited to come down and start a girl's finishing school. That's kind of what was happening down in the South. And we have stayed in that apostolate all this time. We now have missions in Ireland, Scotland, Australia, the Netherlands, Vancouver, Italy, and peppered across the country. Not in California yet. And not in Kansas. But I think there's already a lot of good sisters in those other areas, which is why we're not there yet. [laughter]

Sister Rejane  
Well, yeah, there are Dominicans down in Great Bend, Kansas. They're part of the Dominican Sisters of Peace. That's my one connect that I know is in our state.

Sister Mary Michael  

Yeah.

Sister Rejane  

So you're international, then. You really are international.

Sister Mary Michael  
Yes. We went to Australia first. A Dominican down there, Archbishop Fisher invited us to come. Cardinal Pell, God rest his soul, really wanted sisters to come. And he reached out through Bishop Fisher, Dominican to Dominican. So we went down there a number of years ago and have had a number of vocations come to us through Australia. And we teach there in the schools as well, though, so we always try to stay somehow close to the teaching apostolate. In Ireland, we're at the parish, but there's still kind of CCD or religious education going on. And same with Scotland, and the Netherlands. So even if we're not in a school, in some of those international places, we're still always trying to stay involved in the teaching aspect, because that's our charism. Stick with what you're good at. Right?

Sister Rejane  
Right. That's right. I mean, that's how I got to my order. I was a teacher, too, for several years.

Sister Mary Michael  
Charisms are important. Charisms are important. They're a gift from the Lord, for the church. And so, St. Dominic had that charism of teaching and preaching. And so we tend to stay in there. Which is great.

Sister Rejane  
It is. It's beautiful. It's really beautiful. Well, let's talk a little bit about you. What was your childhood like?

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, heavens!

Sister Rejane  
And was faith really important in your home?

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, yes, yes. Yeah, I tell people, I'm the youngest of nine children born to a very devout Irish Catholic woman, and an English husband, my father, who let my mom run the faith. [laughter] He was a man of faith, too. But mom, really -- we had monthly devotions. I tell people, she's the best catechist I ever had, really. I don't have any memory of myself that's not in the church. And it's a pleasant memory. And I know for my older brothers and sisters isn't quite the same story. I think mom, when she got to the bottom of the list of the kids, I tended to just accompany her to Mass and Adoration and those things. So I had a very rich formation as a child in the faith. Very experiential, very celebratory. You know, there wasn't a feast day that we didn't have a party. I pass that on to people. You know, I say, if you want your children to stay Catholic, then let it be a joy. You know, if you're going to go to Confession, go get ice cream. I just have that memory, you know, we'd go to Mass, and then we'd go get doughnuts. And it wasn't a reward. It was just mom wanted us to enjoy being Catholic. And I always really did.

Sister Rejane  
Well, and it's part of the family, right? It's part of your shared experience. And yes, yes, I remember that as kids, getting our doughnuts. We had something called Family Mass where I was. And so we would all go to like the 9:00 Mass. And then we had doughnuts. And then the kids went to the school -- because I was a public school kid. So we'd go for CCD over at the school across the parking lot. And my parents stayed for adult faith formation. Now I'm like, that's beautiful. Because it should be integrated. They're getting formed. It's not like I just got dropped off. They're staying and faith is important. And it actually created community because they were the love group. And so there'd be different groups like faith, joy. And it'd be like maybe six married couples and their kids were in the CCD program. And so we celebrated a lot of holidays, and like our First Communions and Confirmation together. And so I got the idea that it's relational. There's a personal aspect to faith, but you share it in this community of faith.

Sister Mary Michael  
Yes. Yes. And the personal aspect, Sister, that's very key. And I do believe the church is really looking at that. You know, I'm a, I'm a trained catechist. That's what I was able to study for the gift of my community -- to really do some academic research in the nature of catechesis. And I've been just thrilled about the new directory, the 2020 directory, that doesn't reinvent catechesis. But it does take us back to the original way that the faith was shared. And people were immersed in the faith. It's a way of life. It's a way of life. You mentioned you went to public school, so then you went to CCD. And there's a model there for kind of a systematic formation. But again, what we're seeing now is, the culture is just so different, that there has to be an immersion in the faith. And immersion happens in the family. It's the place of doing that. And in community, small faith, parish communities. Like you were saying, this isn't just I go to my church, but then there may be a smaller group within the church, you know, that I can share my faith with. Families getting together. So we're seeing that more and more, even in our community, trying to encourage the families. And that's actually how the work that I do now, at our retreat house, got started. I've been a teacher for many, many years. But our Sisters realized -- well, the parents actually said it to us, our parents in school said to us, "Sister, we would love to teach our children to pray, but we don't know how to pray." So a group of our Sisters actually put their heads and their hearts together and put together a book called Praying as a Family.

Sister Rejane  
Okay.

Sister Mary Michael  
And then, for a number of years, we were doing workshops on that. And I did that for a few years. And we're still doing workshops on that -- going to parishes and just helping families know how to create a culture of prayer so that their children don't just intellectualize it, but that they had that personal encounter with Christ as a family. I think it's critical.

Sister Rejane  
Oh, it is. It is. Right. And you don't want to compartmentalize your faith. Like, this is just something I do for one hour on Sunday.

Sister Mary Michael  
Right, right.

Sister Rejane  
That's the antithesis of what faith is about, right. It's integrated into your life and your relationships.

Sister Mary Michael  
It's the way I am.

Sister Rejane  
Yeah, right.

Sister Mary Michael  
It's who I am.

Sister Rejane  
Yeah.

Sister Mary Michael  
it's who I am. And that's what I remember as a child. You know, my mother during Lent -- just how the whole house entered into that. And the Triduum. When I entered the convent, we kept the sacred Triduum Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. I was like, well, I'm used to this. We even kept silence on Good Friday. My mother was genius. She would have us keep that sacred silence. And we would die Easter eggs.

Sister Rejane  
In the silence? Okay.

Sister Mary Michael  
You know, we would whisper. I don't know, maybe she was doing it so we wouldn't fight. But I can remember her saying, "This is a holy time. This is a holy time." And then we'd all walk up to church. Because I lived in the city, in Baltimore, so we could walk to our church for the 3:00 services. It was an amazing moment, really, of my past. If we can recover that for families now. -- oh, Sister, wouldn't it be a different place?

Sister Rejane  
It would! Oh, I agree. I would agree. So when did you first hear that call to religious life? Can you pinpoint that?

Sister Mary Michael  
So the call came when I was 19. And I can pinpoint that directly. I was on Adoration. I was actually working downtown, in a law firm as a secretary, trying to just save some money to go to school. I was wanting to go to law school and just kind of sorting some things out after high school. And I remember just talking to the Lord on Adoration, something my mother had taught me to how to do. And I remember asking the Lord, "You know, I'm doing all the things a good Catholic girl should do. Going to confession, I'm going to Mass, I'm wearing the brown scapular. Is there something more?" And I kid you not, Sister, "I heard him from the Blessed Sacrament saying, "Yeah, thanks for asking." [laughter] I kind of looked around the church, did anybody else hear this? [laughter] And because I was taught by Sisters, and so many of them I really loved, that I knew what their life was about, I intuitively knew what that meant. And so I remember looking at Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and smiling and saying to him, "Okay. But I'm on my way to this Catholic college in Virginia that I had my heart set on. So show me the next step, show me the next step." So that was March. And I went to Christendom College in August. And by October, I had met our sisters. I'd been praying for a sign, and I saw the habit, and the Lord again from inside said, "There's your sign." I went down for a retreat. And it was just -- it was so simple, Sister. I have to confess, my discernment was almost too simple. But I think the Lord knew he needed to be really clear for me. Don't complicate it, you know. KISS: Keep it simple, Sister.

Sister Rejane  
Oh my gosh. Now, you said you were taught by Sisters. What communities were you taught by growing up?

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, because I was in Baltimore. You know, Baltimore just has a plethora of different communities there. I had Passionist Sisters because the school where I was a Passionist monastery, St. Joseph Monastery. And so I had Passionist Sisters, but then we also merged with a Benedictine parish. So then I had Benedictine Sisters. Then I had School Sisters of Notre Dame. And then I had IHMs in high school. There were no Franciscans there. But then I also knew the Little Sisters of the Poor in Baltimore. I was well exposed. Yeah. And I saw all of their different apostolates. Of course, the Little Sisters working with the elderly, you know.

Sister Rejane  
Oh, that's, that's wonderful. Yeah, that's a very different story. I had one Sister in the parish who was our Director of Religious Education. So she was my first exposure -- until I went to college, I went to the University of Notre Dame, and then that kind of opened my eyes a bit more to religious life.

Sister Mary Michael  
There's a call within a call, isn't it? When the young women come to our convent to visit, you know, we always try to help them to see there's a call within a call. I know that I'm where I'm supposed to be, but I often tease -- I was very in the pro-life movement. As a matter of fact, that's where I saw our Sisters. I was doing sidewalk counseling. I came home from college and I was doing sidewalk counseling in the back of the abortion clinic. And one of our Sisters, who was teaching at Mount DeSales Academy, had the girls there on Saturday praying the rosary. So they were in the front and I was in the back and the end of the morning, that's where I saw our Sisters. But I often tell the Sisters of Life that if they would have been founded when I was at that age, they would have been a real confusion for me, because I love that apostolate, and I love their community. So you do have to discern where is it that you're called to be, but I don't know. When I went to Christendom, I went wanting to be a lawyer and a lobbyist for the pro-life, and fell in love with teaching.

Sister Rejane  
So it changed. Oh, okay. Yeah, tell me how that happened.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, it was just, yeah. So I fell in love with teaching, actually, before I met our Sisters. See how God just did that?

Sister Rejane  
Yes.

Sister Mary Michael  
So I fell in love with Jesus as a bride of Christ. And then I went to Christendom College, and I was in this this class with Dr. O'Donnell and just the way he opened our mind to Christ. I was electrified by just his way of teaching. And I remember thinking, "I want to do that for the rest of my life. I want to excite people about truth and about the Lord in that way." You know? Not a sterile intellectual activity. But truth is exciting. You know, truth is dramatic. And he's beautiful. Truth is beautiful, because it's Jesus. And so I fell in love with teaching, and then I met our Sisters. And so it was like the Lord saying, "Let's get this hurdle crossed, and then I'll show you the community." And that's what he did.

Sister Rejane  
Gosh, that that's beautiful.

Sister Mary Michael  
Yeah, I'm blessed.

Sister Rejane  
We are going to take a moment for a brief break. This is In Good Faith, a program of A Nun's Life Ministry. We want to thank our sponsors and individual donors like you, whose support makes the In Good Faith program possible. Please visit anunslife.org for more information, to make a donation, or to become a sponsor of the ministry. We will be right back.

Welcome back. I am Sister Rejane of A Nun's Life Ministry. And my guest is Sister Mary Michael Fox. You can find past episodes of In Good Faith, and all our podcasts, at anunslife.org and all the major platforms where you get your podcasts. So were there any other hurdles in that discernment process for you, to becoming a Sister?

Sister Mary Michael  
Not in the discernment. The discernment was just so clear. Again, I heard his voice, it spoke to my heart, I got real excited about it. You know, it's like a girl who falls in love with the boy that she dreams of marrying. And he proposes, and all of that was just terribly romantic for me. But there was a moment where I had to really think about leaving my mom, because I was the bottom of the family. And it was always going to be that I would take care of my mom. I would be the one to take care of her. And I remember that I did have to pray for that. And I talked to the Sisters about that. And the Sisters said, "If you give your life to Christ, you can be sure that he will take care of your mom and your whole family." And he did. You know, my mother passed away a number of years ago, and again, I had a beautiful moment. I wasn't able to be there with her. Now, I don't want your people to think that I get these visions and these interlocutions, because I don't! [laughter] I'm not a mystic. But every once in a while I get a real clear message. And I remember talking to the Blessed Mother, and talking to her about my mom. And she said to me, "I was with your mother." And I thought, "Oh, of course you were. My mother loved you. Of course you were." That was the only hurdle that I had to cross.

Sister Rejane  
Did your mom have to go through some prayer too? Because within the family, her expectation too was you would be the one that she'd spent her days with so well.

Sister Mary Michael  
I don't know if it was that as much. Yes, my mother was devoutly religious. She loved the church, but again, we were close. She never she never talked about vocation in the house. She used to say, "I never thought I was worthy to have a vocation." It was one of the things she used to say, which was beautiful. I found out later that she went up to our parish priest, her confessor, and she, she gave them the what-for. And she says, "Can you believe it? She's going into the convent. And I don't know about this, Father." And he said to her, "Isabel, you have son-in-laws, right"? She goes, "Yes." And he said, "And I bet there was a few of them that maybe you like them sometimes, maybe you don't." And she got quiet, you know? And he said to her, "Isabel, you'll like this son-in-law." [laughter] She told me that story.

Sister Rejane  
That's beautiful and brilliant. [laughter]

Sister Mary Michael  
I will say this, though. She did say to me, when I did sit down and talk to her about it, "I'm not sure you can do it."

Sister Rejane  
Because she knew you. Like moms do.

Sister Mary Michael  
She knew me. And she knew what the life was about. More than I did, really. I just fell in love with Jesus. I didn't ask any questions. I didn't know really what I was in for. I just knew I loved Jesus. As a matter of fact, when I came home from the visit, my family was asking me all kinds of questions. And I kept saying, "I don't know. I don't know what I can come home again. I don't know when you can visit. I don't know when I can write." I didn't ask any of those questions, Sister. All I knew is that Jesus took my heart. So my mother said to me, "I'm not sure you can do it." And because I love my mother and respected her, I said to her, "Mom, I'm not sure I can do it either. But I know I need to go and give it a try." And that's what I went with, Sister. That's what I went with. I crossed the doors of the convent. And I knew each day, he had called me there. It's where he was, it's where my heart was, and all the other aspects of it -- as you know, because there's a lot of sacrifice. All the other aspects had to be given over each time to that. As a woman who marries.

Sister Rejane  
There's a daily commitment. And that's why we need to pray every day. Yeah, I always said, I loved to pray before I entered. But once I entered, I realized I need to pray every day.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, yes.

Sister Rejane  
You do. It's not just an optional thing. And it never should be optional, but it gave me that structure.

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, and you know, I remember John Paul II -- it might have been in his letter, Vita Consecrata -- but he said that every religious woman must spend ample time with her with her spouse, to rediscover his love for her. I will confess that whatever things about the life rub me, and I start kind of being "Grrr," [laughter] I have to check in and go back to Jesus, you know, and to recommit and to hear him say, "I love you with all my heart. Do you love Me with all your heart?" And so, "Yes, Lord, I do. I do." And then I can embrace whatever it is he's asking, you know?

Sister Rejane  
I did a 30-day retreat about two years ago. And I think the most powerful part for me was, I was still holding on to the parts of me that I was ashamed of, or felt were broken. And I'm like, these aren't beautiful enough. Why would I give them to Jesus? And he kind of had to -- you know, like the Holy Spirit coming into the locked room. It was that kind of experience. He's like, "I am here in that brokenness. I am here., in those parts of you that you think aren't lovable -- and you've got to give them to me." That's the whole paradox is that the wounds of Christ, our wounds too, are being used for the good of the people of God. And so it was a very powerful spiritual experience that I couldn't get there before.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, no Sister. I think is one of the greatest obstacles that many people are having right now, to their relationship with the Lord. Somewhere in their mind they got it that they had to be perfect. And even though they hear the message, it still doesn't get to the depth of their being, that that's what mercy is. Mercy is God's love coming to me while I'm still a sinner. A priest in Confession one time said to me, "Sister, your penance is to go and ask Jesus to love in you what you find unlovable."

Sister Rejane  
Exactly.

Sister Mary Michael  
I said, "Oh, Father!"

Sister Rejane  
That's horrible!

Sister Mary Michael  
Actually, well, I think it's a beautiful penance.

Sister Rejane  
It is! It is! But five years ago, I would have been like, "I can't do that." But go ahead.

Sister Mary Michael  
Because what he was saying is, "Okay, so there are things that you think are unlovable, well, just ask Jesus to love it. And then once he starts loving those things, then they're no longer unlovable." Do you see?

Sister Rejane  
Yeah, they've been transformed.

Sister Mary Michael  
They've been transformed. Absolutely, Sister, they've been transformed. Sort of like your Holy Spirit moment. It was a moment like that. You know, Satan always does that. He always throws dirt at us. You know, "You're not worthy. You're not smart enough. You're not holy enough. You're not patient enough." That's his game. That's his game. And you know, St. Catharine of Siena used to say, "Oh, yeah, I'm not humble enough. And so God, you make me humble." And I think that's what Father was saying is, "So you think there are things in you that you don't like, the way you act, the way you respond? Fair enough. Fair enough. You've confessed it. Okay. But ask Jesus just to love those things. Right? Just love them. And of course, he does. Right? He can. I think many of us have been moved by this some series, The Chosen. I'm sure a lot of your listeners are watching that. And I thought it was brilliant what [series creator] Dallas Jenkins did. Our introduction to the chosen was a story of Mary Magdalene.

Sister Rejane  
I remember watching that one.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, I, I watched it and wept. I watched it and wept because I thought, "That is the Jesus that I love. That is my spouse." He is a man who embraces everyone, everyone, with a gentle touch, knows us by name and calls us to himself. I just thought, golly, if people could just discover that about the Lord. Again, it'd be a different place.

Sister Rejane  
It would. Oh, it would. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's just so beautiful to talk about that. I think the intimacy of that relationship -- it takes vulnerability, right to be in that kind of relationship.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, yes.

Sister Rejane  
And I think, especially in the US, we struggle with that. We are such an independent people. And you don't show weakness. And so that follows into our spiritual lives. But once you immerse yourself in the faith, what Jesus is working with, and ministering with those that really have a lot of vulnerabilities and hurts --

Sister Mary Michael  
We all are. We all are. It's in St. John: if you say, you're not a sinner, and by that, you know, just broken, I mean, that's what he came for. It's kind of like going to the doctor, and being ashamed that you're sick. Doctor's like, "That's what I'm here for. I spent a lot of time of my life, studying, preparing to get you better. Come to me with your illness. That's why I'm a doctor." And I often think, Jesus is like that: pleading, "Come to me. That's why I came, that's why I gave my life. Come to me, all you who are weary and find life burdensome. Come to me." It's good to meditate on it though. So, thank you. It's great talking to you about it, Sister!

Sister Rejane  
Always! Always. We are going to take a quick break. Thank you to all our donors and sponsors who support A Nun's Life Ministry, and our In Good Faith podcasts. If you have any questions or comments about this podcast, please leave us a message at 913-214-6087. We would love to hear from you, our listeners. We will be right back.

Hello, listeners, we are back. Remember to fill out our listener online survey that can be found in the Show Notes. Your feedback is important to us. Let's finish our conversation with Sister Mary Michael Fox. Okay. Well, I have a question for you. So you were at Christendom.

Sister Mary Michael  
Christendom. Yes. In the Shenandoah Valley.

Sister Rejane  
And you met the sister in October of your freshman year, right?

Sister Mary Michael  
It was my sophomore year. I was a transfer? Because I did a year of college and then I transferred in.

Sister Rejane  
Now, did you finish your college before you entered? Or you entered in the middle of it? I'm just curious.

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, Dr. O'Donnell won't want me to say this publicly. But I left Christendom. I transferred from Christendom into the convent. He kept wanting me to stay and finish up there. But my heart was gone. I had already flown to Nashville. So we have a college, the sisters do -- Aquinas College there in Nashville. It's a teacher school. So I just transferred from Christendom to Aquinas and finish my education degree. We don't ask that a young woman have her degree before she enters. Because we can educate her. We have the ability to do that right there. And it works really well. And so I finished the year out, and then the next year enrolled in Aquinas College, Nashville, Tennessee.

Sister Rejane  
And for teaching, correct?

Sister Mary Michael  
Yes, yes.

Sister Rejane  
And how was teaching for you?

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, it was like a duck in water to be honest with you, Sister. It really was. So this was 1987 when I entered, and '89 I made vows. And then I finished another year of college. So by now I'm a junior, okay, because even though you enter, you don't take a full load because they're wanting you to enter into religious life. So you don't take a full load of classes. And so my junior year I finished up and then we needed teachers. So a few of us in my group actually went to teach before we finished college. And so I did kind of a work study. Now it's a given you do that, you know, you can kind of do a work study -- well, let me let me let me clarify that. We get our degree. And then you can do your student teaching in a classroom. It's called embedded student teaching.

Sister Rejane  
Sure.

Sister Mary Michael  
But I just did mine. So yeah, it was very natural. It was kind of fun. Loved being a teacher and kind of being a mom. My first year was second grade.

Sister Rejane  
Oh, you did -- you started in second grade?

Sister Mary Michael  
I started in second grade, yeah.

Sister Rejane  
So did I, actually.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, it's a great year -- preparing them for First Communion and First Penance.

Sister Rejane  
Yeah, I was in a public school. But yes, yes.

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, sure. Sure. That is a little different.

Sister Rejane  
Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't entered yet. So but, but that was my first adventure and teaching. But I found for myself, I would use words that were too big. And you know, at that point, I was Miss Cytacki. They were like, "Miss Cytacki, we don't know what you just said." Okay, let me bring it down a level.

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, I had a funny story. So I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. And I'm working very hard to have a Mideast accent right now, but when I go back home, it's a real cockney English in Baltimore. It really is. And so we swallow our Ls and our consonants and it can be hard to understand. So I came to Jackson, Tennessee, which is country, and I'm teaching spelling. And that week, all the words have an OLD ending: cold, bold. But I can't get the OLD. It's not in the Baltimore dialect. So the kids kept looking at me. "What are you saying?" And so I remember the spelling test. And I said, "Cold. C O L D. Cold." The kids, they laughed. "Thanks, Sister." [laughter] Yeah, you used big words. But I use words the kids couldn't understand. It was fun. It was fun. Just good memories. Just good memories.

Sister Rejane  
Well, it's true that the students teach us so much as we are teaching them as well. Okay, so you started in second grade. And then did you move around the grades or just stay in second grade?

Sister Mary Michael  
No, I moved around the grades. So after that year, I came back to the motherhouse and taught fifth grade. And there I was blessed to mentor under an expert fifth grade teacher. So my partner teacher was just the best in the city of Nashville. And Mother had said to her, you know, "Just teach her everything you know," and she did. So fifth grade there. And then I went back and did my student teaching. So that was kind of fun. Which was a walk in the park. I mean, if you've taught two years, and then you do student teaching ... anyway. So fifth grade, and then junior high. So sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, and then first grade.

Sister Rejane  
Oh, my gosh.

Sister Mary Michael  
That was a blast. I had no math book, no social studies book, no religion book. I had a reading series, because the school where I was was very poor. Very poor.

Sister Rejane  
What did you do?

Sister Mary Michael  
Oh, I had the time of my life, because I knew the curriculum. And I've always been that way. Like, what's the curriculum? One of the Sisters actually taught me that. She said, if ever your lesson plan goes not as you expected, just think in your mind, what do I want them to learn? And then just be creative. And it was the best advice. It was my first year teaching. And my principal, Sister John Mary was just an extraordinary teacher and principal, still is. And, and that was my go-to:  what do I want you to learn? And then I'll find a way to get you to have that in your mind. And so it worked out really well. I didn't have any problem with it at all. For social studies, we went around the world. And each country, we did an activity and it was just fun. It was creativity at its best. I work better outside of a box, to be honest with you, Sister.

Sister Rejane  
No, I understand completely. I do, because I taught for four years in the in the public system. And then once I entered, we had school in Denver. And at that point, the diocese decided not to embrace all the state standards. So it gave me more freedom, like what you're talking about with the creativity. And I was dealing with English as a second language -- 90% of the students. And so here I am with my social studies book, you know, and the words like peninsula, and ravine. I had like a high school student who was on break, I'm like, "We are going to use playdough. And we are going to dye it green and blue. And we're going to have the kids make these things, and then talk about it." That took all two weeks. The poor high school student -- really, I worked him hard. But afterwards, we're reading and my student could point and say, "That is a gorge."

Sister Mary Michael  
Yep.

Sister Rejane  
It took so much time to get there. But it's now truly learned, you know? Because then I came back to Kansas and the campus schools were in sync with the state standards, and I had to move fast. And I couldn't be as creative and it was trickier. It was just a little more tricky.

Sister Mary Michael  
And it isn't creative to be just wild.

Sister Rejane  
No.

Sister Mary Michael  
But creative in the sense of creating knowledge. The deeper meaning is helping children to create their knowledge. So I'm not just telling them something.

Sister Rejane  
Exactly.

Sister Mary Michael  
But I'm giving them the tools that they can put together. It's a very Montessori approach, actually, I just didn't know it at the time. But giving them the tools to then make connections on their own. And that's creating knowledge in their mind. And they keep it forever. And it's more exciting. It's got just all that joy of education -- what real education is about.

Sister Rejane  
Right. Right.

Sister Mary Michael  
Yeah, that's another soapbox, education.

Sister Rejane  
Right, right. And the thing is, I often find it takes more time to do some of that scaffolding, so that they can then take it and apply it in other situations? I remember coming back to Kansas, and we were saying, you know, individualized instruction, but let the kids discover -- help them discover learning. But then here's all these tests, and I had had enough philosophy, I'm like, "Wait a minute, there's a disconnect. These tests are saying, I am pouring knowledge into your head. And you need to regurgitate it. But yet you want me in practice to teach so that it's student centered?" And they didn't have an answer for me, because I took it to a higher level. But that was one thing I learned, that it was really difficult.

Sister Mary Michael  
Good teaching is not just data transfer.

Sister Rejane  
Right.

Sister Mary Michael  
St. Thomas, he says that a real teacher kind of points to the signs. It's leading children. That's what education is: leading them. It's hard work. It's hard work to be a teacher.

Sister Rejane  
It is.

Sister Mary Michael  
I'm not saying I'm a very good teacher, but I like teaching.

Sister Rejane  
It's fulfilling work. Okay, so tell me a bit about CGS, and how you first encountered that.

Sister Mary Michael  

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Sister Rejane  

And that's the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd.

Sister Mary Michael  
Yes. Well, what I didn't finish was that I went from second, fifth, first, and then I got to high school. So I've done the whole gamut. Just for the record.

Sister Rejane  
Good for you. Okay!

Sister Mary Michael  
So Catechesis of the Good Shepherd. Well, I was I was working as the Director of our Office of Catechetics at our college at Aquinas, doing adult faith formation, really, and was working on a doctorate. So Mother wanted me to get my doctorate research, and I asked if could I do it in catechetics, that particular field of how to hand the faith on. So I was doing a research on kind of what you and I have been talking about, about the nature of learning really. You know, just the idea of exciting people, not just telling them. I think that's very true even in the faith. You don't just want to tell people about God, you want to lead them to God. And so it's the head and the heart, right? It's the doctrine that excites and ignites. So I started to do my research on the history of catechetics. What went wrong? Where did we get this bifurcation between the head and the heart? Because Jesus certainly didn't have that. And the early apostles didn't have it. And the early church didn't have it. And while I was doing that research, I had to observe a formation class -- Catechesis of the Good Shepherd. So we were hosting that at our college. And I went into just observe it. And I'm watching the catechist give a lesson, or what we call a presentation. It was supposed to be for a three-year-old. And I was just gobsmacked, as they say in England. I thought, here is a beautiful, deeply, richly doctrinal presentation that has a great contemplative dimension to it, and the children were excited. And so then I asked my director -- I said, "Can I change my thesis research question?" [laughter] Which you don't usually do. Right?

Sister Rejane  
Right.

Sister Mary Michael  
I had to really convince them, this is where no one has researched it. This is where I want to go research. What is it about this work? How does it line up according to the Church's teachings on catechesis? So all the different directories at the time. So I spent six years researching it. So I went through all the training. I worked in an atrium, which is kind of the classroom, if you will, for the CGS and just kept looking at its approach. It's what I call its pedagogy, and fell more and more in love with it, became more and more convicted that this is an approach that we need right now in our church. And then in 2020, the church gave us a new directory, and I kept thinking, Oh, here it is the CGS! With an official stamp by the church.

Sister Rejane  
Wow.

Sister Mary Michael  
I'm kind of stretching that, but not really.

Sister Rejane  
It lines up.

Sister Mary Michael  
It lines up beautifully, Sister. So I took my dissertation, and have since written a book that lines up the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd with the new directory, and just try to show people, the church is asking for this way of catechesis. I'm seeing an approach that really models that way. And there's a lot for all of us to think about and to take from it.

Sister Rejane  
What's the title of your book?

Sister Mary Michael  
it's called Following God's Pedagogy: Principles for Children's Catechesis. So pedagogy is an educational term. And it stands for everything involved with education. So you and I were talking about education, the curriculum and the things you had to teach. That's one aspect of it. Right? What needs to be taught. But there's a whole other aspect of how are we going to teach that? And of course, the critical component in that is, who is going to receive this teaching? Yes?

Sister Rejane  

Yes.

Sister Mary Michael  

Because St. Thomas says that whatever is received, is received according to the mode of the receiver. So when you think about a small child, how is a three -year-old, a four-year-old, a five-year-old going to receive the gospel? What are their religious hungers, their intellectual capacities? What about their body, the way that they receive knowledge? And no one has really done, that looked at the child and has asked the question, how does a child receive the Gospel? Nobody except Sofia Cavalletti and Gianna Gobbi, who are the protagonists of the CGS method or CGS approach. In 1954, these two Italian women asked that question: how do we bring the child to God, and how do we bring God to the child? And for 50 years, they embarked on a beautiful, humble adventure, they call it, of making that happen. And so the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd goes from three-year-olds -- well, actually, now they start even with two-year-olds -- up until 12-year-olds. And there has been some exploration of even going into the high school. It's amazing. But that would be another hour, Sister.

Sister Rejane  
I know. I know. But I do have to ask -- so I'm going to be teaching second grade Sunday School, CCD, this year. And since I never taught it in a Catholic school, what advice could you give me, or some resources you could give me?

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, I think I would draw from what Sofia and Gianna discovered -- and even what our sisters have discovered. Because we've been teaching second grade for a long time as well. Sofia and Gianna, they went to the heart of what is the heart of Eucharistic preparation, Holy Communion? Do the children know that Jesus is present? And do they desire him? The desire comes from them coming to know him through the scriptures. Who does Jesus say that he is? Why would they want a relationship with Him? Knowing He's present in the Eucharist -- I wouldn't make that complicated. So I ask you this question: how do I know He's present in the Eucharist? Because he said so. [laughter] You can't prove that to me that he's there. I mean, I know St. Thomas Aquinas gave us the great doctrine on transubstantiation. I'm not dismissing that. But children don't need to understand transubstantiation to be worthy for First Communion. It. The way we say in the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd is on the cross, Jesus gave his whole self for us. And at Mass, Jesus gives His whole self for us in the bread and the wine. So that understanding of his whole self for us -- Jesus is really here. That's what they need to have faith in. And it's faith, you know? So I think, again, we try to put too much into the mind of the child, when the child needs just a few deep, profound doctrines. But they need time to contemplate it, to pray it. Keep it simple, Sister.

Sister Rejane  
Thank you! Sister Mary Michael, that's very helpful. Yes, I'll be meeting with our Deacon to kind of talk over some of the logistics, but I'm very excited.

Sister Mary Michael  
I don't think you're gonna get a better curriculum for First Communion preparation than what the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd offers. I've taught it too long. And I've looked at too many curriculums. It's just the most beautiful.

Sister Rejane  

Can I pull just second grade out, versus the whole program? That's the part I wasn't sure about.

Sister Mary Michael

Yeah, that is a little bit tricky. We don't lend ourselves to just kind of pulling. But again, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Sister Rejane  
Okay.

Sister Mary Michael  
There are some parables that the Good Shepherd catechesis says shares in preparation. There's a book written by a fella down in Australia, Dr. Gerard O'Shea. And I can email you his book title, if you want to share that with your audience.

Sister Rejane  
Yes, please.

Sister Mary Michael  
But he has actually written a book. He's been trained in the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, and has been trying to take the principles of it, especially the curriculum, and help teachers. And so his book actually has a curriculum in the back of it. It's called Educating in Christ. And I think it's outstanding, actually. He's done the hard work for us. So you could look at that curriculum and your people could look at that curriculum, any grade they're teaching, and say, okay, here are the essential doctrines for this grade. And here are parables that match that doctrine. And look, here's the Catechism that teaches that doctrine. So he's lined it all up in a beautiful, beautiful, systematic way.

Sister Rejane  
All right. Thank you. I will check that out before I start. I really appreciate that. So now you are in a different ministry, are you not, outside of education a little bit. You are working at the Bethany Retreat House with your congregation?

Sister Mary Michael  
I am. Yes. I am not at the college anymore. I was doing a lot of traveling for our office, doing a lot of work in evangelization. Was gone too much. Right. So there is such a thing, Sister, as you know, if you're in a convent, there's a reason you're in a convent, because you're supposed to be in a convent. So if you're on the road all the time, it gets a little problematic. So we downshifted and pulled back. And I needed to finish the book. The book wasn't getting finished. So mother was gracious enough to let me come here at our retreat house and serve here. I wrote the book, finished the book, just this past February. And I really thought perhaps she'd send me back out, but I'm sticking around. So I go once a month and do preaching, because we want to do that. I'm working with Franciscan University in Steubenville and helping them with their catechetical institute, doing some help there remote. And so that's keeping me in the in the preaching, teaching, catechetical world with just the right balance of being out on the road, but being stable here. Because people come to my house every weekend looking for the Lord, so I don't have to go after them. They come here. While I don't lead the retreats here -- a few times, I've given a retreat here -- but primarily I work as Martha. Martha and Mary is my primary work here. I help with the cooking -- I'm not the cook, but I help. Clean the dishes, clean the house, take care of the people, what do you need? And then I pray for them. We all do. People's hearts are changed by grace. And we intercede for them. And it happens, Sister, every weekend. The minute people come on our property, they say it. They come to Bethany and they are refreshed. So it's a great apostolate. I am grateful that Mother's let me come back. I think I'm in a great place. I hope I get to stay for a few more years doing both/and. The hospitality, the Ministry of love and prayer. And then I still get to go preaching.

Sister Rejane  

Sure. And also kind of renewing your relationships within your own community.

Sister Mary Michael  

Oh, gosh yes.

Sister Rejane  
Versus when you were out on the road. I'm sure that was difficult to stay connected with your Sisters.

Sister Mary Michael  
Yeah, no. There's a reason Dominicans are in a convent. Keeps them tied to the Lord and tied to their life.

Sister Rejane  
Yeah, my community is apostolic. So I just live with one other Sister in a house. But I'm about 10 minutes from the motherhouse here in Leavenworth. But with the pandemic and we couldn't get in the motherhouse. There's some repair work, you know, that needs to happen that we as Sisters who don't live there feel welcome again. And that's happening now. Whereas before, you could come and go as you please. So it was home. So it's like you were locked out for a while, understandably so with our elder Sisters. But it's so interesting how that has changed things.

Sister Mary Michael  
There are eight other sisters who live here. So we have these little missions. So we have the motherhouse in Nashville, but then we have all these different missions, and most of them have at least three, four sisters. And we live the regular life on our missions, you know, the prayer life, the community life. We have meals in silence. That's kind of a very monastic tradition that we've held onto. So each mission, each house, each convent you go to, it's a mini motherhouse. So we try to keep that.

Sister Rejane  
Sure. So you have smaller living communities?

Sister Mary Michael  
Yes.

Sister Rejane  
Okay. So that's similar. Sister Mary Michael, I really appreciate your time today. This has been wonderful to share your story and share your spiritual journey and your relationship with Jesus. I'm just very grateful.

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, thanks for the work that you do, Sister. I wasn't aware of this particular program that you have until you reached out -- and you're doing great work for helping religious life be known to people. So thank you very much. You have a great apostolate.

Sister Rejane  
Yes, yes. And we just love trying to connect -- like you said -- Catholic Sisters with the world. And discerners too. There's a lot out there. I interact with them a lot. Facebook Messenger, website. A lot of seekers still.

Sister Mary Michael  
Well, Sister, let me say this. If you have people who are discerning -- young women ask me, "Sister, how do you know? How do you know?" And so I say, stay on a regular prayer life. keep a check on regular Confession. Regular Confession, regular prayer life. And if you think that God is calling you to be a Sister, go visit. Go visit. And then I tell them, give him six months. So you say to Jesus, "Lord, if You want me, I'm yours." Give him six months. If he doesn't propose, go find another husband. [laughter] Isn't that true, Sister? Our spouse doesn't play around, right? He doesn't play games. He doesn't play mind games. He actually is very clear. So we don't want to get into a long-term discernment relationship with Jesus. He doesn't need that. And we don't need that. So the sermon shouldn't take a long time. "Jesus, if you want me, I'm offering myself. I'm gonna go visit these contents to see where it fits. If it isn't for me, then show me my husband. And thank you very much." And he will. He will, because he wants us happy, right, Sister? I mean that's what he wants.

Sister Rejane  
Right.

Sister Mary Michael  
He doesn't want miserable women in the world. He wants happy women.

Sister Rejane  
That's how you know your vocation, is the joy.

Sister Mary Michael  
So thank you so much for the time, and God bless you.

Sister Rejane  
You too. Yes.

Sister Mary Michael  
How about you want to end with a prayer?

Sister Rejane  
Yes.

Sister Mary Michael  
For us and our fidelity and for anyone else discerning. The name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Thank you, Lord, for our vocations. Thank you for showing us our vocations. We pray for all of the Sisters that you have called to yourself. Keep them faithful. We pray for all of the young women who would be listening to this podcast, that they would be open to your call to their happiness, that they will just hear your voice, to show them where you want them to be and where you will bring them to their fullness of happiness. And Mother Mary, we entrust ourselves to you as together we pray: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed art thou among women. And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. The name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen. God bless you, Sister. Thanks so much.

Sister Rejane  
Thank you -- that was beautiful. In Good Faith is a production of A Nun's Life Ministry, helping people discover and grow in their vocation by engaging questions about God, faith, and religious life. This program is made possible through the grace of God and the support of our sponsors of A Nun's Life Ministry, and you, our listeners. Don't forget to call us and leave a message. Tell us what you like, ask a question, or just say hi. Call 913-214-6087 and visit us at anunslife.org. God bless.

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability.